I keep hearing some ideas that strike me as very odd that I can't yet organize into a coherent point of view, which was also the case in my previous post. It's not getting much clearer yet. Some questions out of the incoherence occur:
Why does it matter that America isn't in the Bible as far as hopes for a revival go? Revival is God's coming down and imparting fresh spiritual life to His people This could happen in Timbuktoo as well as America and I don't think Timbuktoo is in the Bible either.
What does it have to do with the origins of America whether we have revival or not? Why should it matter whether the Founders were Enlightenment Deists or Christians for us to desire to wake up the churches and strengthen believers in the Holy Spirit? For whatever reason America as a whole HAS been historically characterized by Christian culture and if the churches get revived the whole culture will get renewed with a Christian outlook. What any of this has to do with specifics about the Founding generation completely escapes me.
Why should there be a problem with desiring and seeking revival whether or not the very last days are upon us and the Antichrist is just around the corner? Why would we need to find such a revival in the Bible in order to justify seeking it? We seek it because we need it. If it should come before the Evil Empire descends on us at least we will have had a wonderful awakening, the strengthening of God's people and the ushering in of many converts who won't be prey for that regime.
They seem to talk at times as if revival or desire for revival could interfere with the end times plan, even as if that would be working against God. Strengthening His church would be working against God? What if it did put off the timing of the coming of the final Evil Empire? God's going to object to that?
They also seem to talk as if Well fine if God brings revival well and good but if not well and good, as if revival simply drops out of the sky at God's bidding and has nothing to do with human effort. I've read quite a bit about revivals and one thing that is true of all of them is that there was deep desire and seeking for the revival and much much prayer. If that isn't happening there will not be revival.
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LATER: The people who seem to be saying these things seem to have "moralizing" in mind as the problem, attempts to "reclaim" "Christian America" with politics and moral reformation, which tends to seek alignment with nonChristian groups that share the same moral perspective, meaning Christians aligning with Mormons and Catholics and the like in an ecumenical coalition. However, this does manage to get confused with long-established hopes for revival among true Christians such as Leonard Ravenhill never ceased calling for, and sites such as Sermon Index are dedicated to.
I get the feeling that these critics aren't really aware of these revival hopes and that may be why I'm having such a hard time grasping their position. I have certainly vacillated a great deal on whether or not such a revival is even possible at this time, or could even be risky considering all the false "Christian" groups that keep springing up like poisonous mushrooms these days that would do their best to interfere with it.
And now Glenn Beck the Mormon has been calling for "revival" which is another red flag. BUT: True revival is not possible within Mormonism, true Holy Spirit revival, because it's a false religion. The best they could do IS some attempt at moralistic reformation -- or some demonic manifestations perhaps, and we ARE getting near the time when "signs and wonders" are prophesied to start appearing. Same with Catholicism and all the growing bodies of apostate "Christianity" out there as well. Rick Warren's church, Joel Osteen's, the Emergent Church etc. etc.
But is it possible to have a true revival among true Christians without all the rest of that interfering? Again, I vacillate. I might not have worried about it except that I remember A W Tozer warning that there are times, and his own time was one, when revival would not be a good idea because of the backslidden or watered-down condition of the churches -- and he wasn't even talking about all the FALSE churches, just weak true churches. So the question about true revival really is: Is there enough of a true church now that God COULD revive us in true supernatural power and convert some of the apostates as well? Or not?
Showing posts with label Revival hope. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Revival hope. Show all posts
Tuesday, March 6, 2012
Wednesday, February 22, 2012
The growing apostasy makes revival risky
More Christians are recognizing the validity of Jonathan Cahn's revelation of God's messages to America about 9/11, which ought to herald a great awakening beginning with the repentance of the churches. That and only that could prevent God's judgments against America that the "harbingers" are all about, and lead to the recovery of God's blessings on the nation. And I'm still doing what I can to promote it simply because this is truly God's own word to us.
At the same time it is so clear that the churches are going off in so many false directions these days my old forbodings about a false revival are coming back in force, and it's becoming hard to welcome any revival at all, even one that would come in response to these uncanny revelations of God's judgments against the nation.
I think it was A. W. Tozer I first heard say something along these lines. There are times when the condition of the churches makes revival a bad idea.
I've been willing to accept that the Brownsville "revival" of a decade or so ago was most likely truly from God despite my initial misgivings, because of a few people who seemed to be having genuine experiences, although I still have to question others, and if the questionable ones were all I'd seen I wouldn't have been so convinced it was from God.
In any case it seems like a "weak" revival, heavy on the physical phenomena that former true revivals always played down. We don't need more of those. We need revival that majors in repentance for the sins of the churches and the sins of the nation and a return to pure doctrine, and a revived national moral conscience that comes as a consequence of the purification of the churches.
But even as I contemplate that as the desired direction I'm aware of all the false movements growing up these days that would be waiting in the wings to co-opt any such move of the Spirit and turn it into a false revival that would be extremely hard to distinguish from the true.
Right now we've got politicians and pundits who preach policies a true conservative Christian wants to hear and yet they are Catholics and Mormons. Two of the Republican candidates are Catholics, one is a Mormon. Then there is Glenn Beck who is a popular and very articulate spokesman for conservative politics, but his Mormonism, and now his Mormonism aligning itself with Catholicism as well, is becoming blatantly obviously his main agenda. He'd turn revival to purposes a true Christian couldn't welcome. And he keeps calling for a revival too, again no revival a Christian could welcome. David Barton, former champion of evangelical hopes for the revival of a supposedly once-Christian nation, has sadly joined with Glenn Beck and dashed all such hopes for anyone who has a solid Biblical basis. Any revival that got co-opted by these false religionists would become a false revival in the service of false religion, mislead people away from Christ and the nation closer to judgment.
There are many supposed evangelicals who have already proved their lack of discernment by embracing both Mormons and Catholics as genuine Christians, evangelicals who denounce the true evangelicals who do have good Biblical discernment and refuse to link with Mormonism and Catholicism, as "haters" who fail at the most basic requirement of Christian love. And there are some who reject Mormonism but accept Catholicism, to make it even more complicated, such as Franklin Graham, following after his father Billy Graham.
With that kind of twistedness out there, my hope for a genuine revival is foundering and I'm beginning to see the "harbinger" revelations, that should be the catalyst to true revival, instead as God's witnesses against America that are going to stand against the nation to the last day. What could have inspired the purification the churches need probably shouldn't happen even if it could at this point, so the nation can only continue to deteriorate under God's judgments while the global-minded church keeps building the platform for the rise of the Antichrist.
Now I'm more inclined in the direction of wanting to see what's left of the true churches and true Christians be strengthened in Biblical foundations, so we can "stand in that evil day" maybe manage to shout truth into the storm as it swirls around us -- if we're still here when it breaks.
At the same time it is so clear that the churches are going off in so many false directions these days my old forbodings about a false revival are coming back in force, and it's becoming hard to welcome any revival at all, even one that would come in response to these uncanny revelations of God's judgments against the nation.
I think it was A. W. Tozer I first heard say something along these lines. There are times when the condition of the churches makes revival a bad idea.
I've been willing to accept that the Brownsville "revival" of a decade or so ago was most likely truly from God despite my initial misgivings, because of a few people who seemed to be having genuine experiences, although I still have to question others, and if the questionable ones were all I'd seen I wouldn't have been so convinced it was from God.
In any case it seems like a "weak" revival, heavy on the physical phenomena that former true revivals always played down. We don't need more of those. We need revival that majors in repentance for the sins of the churches and the sins of the nation and a return to pure doctrine, and a revived national moral conscience that comes as a consequence of the purification of the churches.
But even as I contemplate that as the desired direction I'm aware of all the false movements growing up these days that would be waiting in the wings to co-opt any such move of the Spirit and turn it into a false revival that would be extremely hard to distinguish from the true.
Right now we've got politicians and pundits who preach policies a true conservative Christian wants to hear and yet they are Catholics and Mormons. Two of the Republican candidates are Catholics, one is a Mormon. Then there is Glenn Beck who is a popular and very articulate spokesman for conservative politics, but his Mormonism, and now his Mormonism aligning itself with Catholicism as well, is becoming blatantly obviously his main agenda. He'd turn revival to purposes a true Christian couldn't welcome. And he keeps calling for a revival too, again no revival a Christian could welcome. David Barton, former champion of evangelical hopes for the revival of a supposedly once-Christian nation, has sadly joined with Glenn Beck and dashed all such hopes for anyone who has a solid Biblical basis. Any revival that got co-opted by these false religionists would become a false revival in the service of false religion, mislead people away from Christ and the nation closer to judgment.
There are many supposed evangelicals who have already proved their lack of discernment by embracing both Mormons and Catholics as genuine Christians, evangelicals who denounce the true evangelicals who do have good Biblical discernment and refuse to link with Mormonism and Catholicism, as "haters" who fail at the most basic requirement of Christian love. And there are some who reject Mormonism but accept Catholicism, to make it even more complicated, such as Franklin Graham, following after his father Billy Graham.
With that kind of twistedness out there, my hope for a genuine revival is foundering and I'm beginning to see the "harbinger" revelations, that should be the catalyst to true revival, instead as God's witnesses against America that are going to stand against the nation to the last day. What could have inspired the purification the churches need probably shouldn't happen even if it could at this point, so the nation can only continue to deteriorate under God's judgments while the global-minded church keeps building the platform for the rise of the Antichrist.
Now I'm more inclined in the direction of wanting to see what's left of the true churches and true Christians be strengthened in Biblical foundations, so we can "stand in that evil day" maybe manage to shout truth into the storm as it swirls around us -- if we're still here when it breaks.
Sunday, July 5, 2009
Nobody's listening but it's got to be said anyway
The prophet's task is a pretty thankless one. It's a prophet's work to bring a nation to repentance, to bring the church to repentance, to exhort the church to spiritual power. Leonard Ravenhill knew that thankless task very well. Hardly anybody listens to the prophets; nobody likes the prophets. They say hard things, they don't talk sweet and nice and friendly. They care only for God's glory, they don't give a rap about being popular, and, if they invite unbelievers into the Kingdom, which isn't their usual task but if they do, they're going to tell them it costs, they must repent and they have to die, they aren't going to say "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life." The last thing we need is more coddled worldly-minded Christians. As Ravenhill says, we're supposed to put on the full armor of God, but today's church is more like a nursery than an armory.
The Old Testament prophets were persecuted by the people God sent them to warn and exhort; New Testament prophets are always trying to drag the church back to a strict walk and their lot isn't much more cheering. They get called legalistic and asked Who do they think they are and the like. After they're dead they get accolades. But nobody listens to them really, whether they're alive or dead. If they did, by now we'd have had revival because we haven't been left without prophets over the last century.
Nobody listened to Ravenhill. And Ravenhill points out that nobody listened to J Edwin Orr who preached some thirty years earlier that if we want revival The Church Must First Repent.
So the same situation is ongoing, though worse with each passing year. The church has not repented, has not listened to Ravenhill or any of the others, has not sought the power we so sorely lack, and goes limping along while the nations continue to degenerate and skip merrily to Hell all around us.
Another way to say it is that the church has not learned to die, although according to Jesus, who is supposedly our Lord and Master, it is only death that brings life.
So when I think of writing about all this I know it's probably a lost cause. I get that sinking feeling that goes with knowing what we need to do and that it isn't going to be done. Nobody is listening. There are plenty of postings out there on the net about these things, what good would it do to add my own voice to the throng that is not being heard anyway?
The answer is it may not do any good at all, but I still have to do it.
And as Edwin Orr says, it really only takes a few who are really dedicated to get the ball rolling. Not even as many as Gideon's army. Sometimes only two or one. Do I have it in me to pay the price myself? I'm not all that good at obeying my own advice either, so that's where I really need to start, with dying to myself and praying more. Praying first that God will give me the ability to do this because, really, I don't have it in me. I have the desire, even the yearning, but I'm spiritually weak.
The Old Testament prophets were persecuted by the people God sent them to warn and exhort; New Testament prophets are always trying to drag the church back to a strict walk and their lot isn't much more cheering. They get called legalistic and asked Who do they think they are and the like. After they're dead they get accolades. But nobody listens to them really, whether they're alive or dead. If they did, by now we'd have had revival because we haven't been left without prophets over the last century.
Nobody listened to Ravenhill. And Ravenhill points out that nobody listened to J Edwin Orr who preached some thirty years earlier that if we want revival The Church Must First Repent.
So the same situation is ongoing, though worse with each passing year. The church has not repented, has not listened to Ravenhill or any of the others, has not sought the power we so sorely lack, and goes limping along while the nations continue to degenerate and skip merrily to Hell all around us.
Another way to say it is that the church has not learned to die, although according to Jesus, who is supposedly our Lord and Master, it is only death that brings life.
So when I think of writing about all this I know it's probably a lost cause. I get that sinking feeling that goes with knowing what we need to do and that it isn't going to be done. Nobody is listening. There are plenty of postings out there on the net about these things, what good would it do to add my own voice to the throng that is not being heard anyway?
The answer is it may not do any good at all, but I still have to do it.
And as Edwin Orr says, it really only takes a few who are really dedicated to get the ball rolling. Not even as many as Gideon's army. Sometimes only two or one. Do I have it in me to pay the price myself? I'm not all that good at obeying my own advice either, so that's where I really need to start, with dying to myself and praying more. Praying first that God will give me the ability to do this because, really, I don't have it in me. I have the desire, even the yearning, but I'm spiritually weak.
WHAT THIS BLOG IS ABOUT
The dire situation of America came up again at Faith's Corner, just the day after America's birthday, and this time I thought I'd see what I can put together in a separate blog about whether there's any hope for the nation.
I don't know where my own hope came from but even to be thinking in this direction implies some hope. I'd pretty much given up, you see. I gave up on politics some time ago, but then I also gave up on the churches, and it's the churches that have the ultimate responsibility for what happens in the nation. Of course most Christians pray for the nation, but the church is in a bad way too, needing God's correction before there's much hope the nation can be corrected.
There are some prophetic voices out there trying to call the church back, trying to call the nation back, but there are also lots of false prophets making it difficult to hear the true. There are also lots of Christians who think they and their churches are immune to such problems, and while they lament the moral and spiritual degeneration of America they don't see themselves as having any power to do anything about it, or any responsibility for the situation in the first place.
The late Leonard Ravenhill was one of the strongest prophetic voices who spoke directly to America's moral decline and the church's role in it as well as the hope the church would wake up and experience true revival, which is really the only hope for the nation, and I want to start out this blog with his deeply concerned messages.
I don't know where my own hope came from but even to be thinking in this direction implies some hope. I'd pretty much given up, you see. I gave up on politics some time ago, but then I also gave up on the churches, and it's the churches that have the ultimate responsibility for what happens in the nation. Of course most Christians pray for the nation, but the church is in a bad way too, needing God's correction before there's much hope the nation can be corrected.
There are some prophetic voices out there trying to call the church back, trying to call the nation back, but there are also lots of false prophets making it difficult to hear the true. There are also lots of Christians who think they and their churches are immune to such problems, and while they lament the moral and spiritual degeneration of America they don't see themselves as having any power to do anything about it, or any responsibility for the situation in the first place.
The late Leonard Ravenhill was one of the strongest prophetic voices who spoke directly to America's moral decline and the church's role in it as well as the hope the church would wake up and experience true revival, which is really the only hope for the nation, and I want to start out this blog with his deeply concerned messages.
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